Episode 4: Overthinking Isn’t the Problem, Your Nervous System Is.

Do you constantly replay conversations, analyze every possible outcome, or feel trapped in an endless loop of "what if" thinking?

In this episode of The Truth About Healing, Dana Carretta-Stein and Claudio unpack the real reason overthinking happens and why it's often much more than a mindset problem.

Through a trauma-informed and nervous-system-focused lens, they explore how overthinking can begin as a survival strategy, why it can feel impossible to turn off, and how unresolved experiences can keep your brain stuck in hypervigilance long after the threat is gone.

You'll learn the difference between productive planning and rumination, why overthinking often disconnects us from our emotions, and practical tools you can use to get out of your head and back into the present moment.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

✔️ Why overthinking often starts as a helpful survival skill

✔️ The difference between planning and rumination

✔️ How trauma and nervous system dysregulation fuel overthinking

✔️ Why your thoughts are influenced by your nervous system state

✔️ The connection between hypervigilance and anxiety

✔️ Grounding techniques to stop the mental spiral

✔️ How movement helps regulate an overactive mind

✔️ Why overthinking often keeps us from feeling our emotions

✔️ The role of co-regulation in healing

✔️ How EMDR and trauma-informed therapy can help break the cycle

If you've ever felt exhausted by your own thoughts, this episode will help you understand what's happening beneath the surface—and why healing isn't about controlling your thoughts, but learning to create safety within your nervous system. 

Resources Mentioned

📖 The EMDR Therapy Progress Journal & Workbook
Available on Amazon and at:
https://www.danacarretta.com

Work With Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling

Whether you're struggling with anxiety, trauma, burnout, relationship challenges, or feeling stuck in survival mode, our team is here to help.

📍 In-Person Therapy: Scarsdale, NY

💻 Virtual Therapy: Available for residents of NY, NJ, CT, FL & CO

📅 Learn more or schedule a consultation:
www.peacefullivingmhc.com

Additional Resources

🧠 EMDR Resources for Clinicians & Clients
www.danacarretta.com/shop

🛠️ Recommended Therapy Tools, Regulation Resources & EMDR Systems for Clinicians
www.danacarretta.com/therapytools

🎁 Free Nervous System Resources
www.danacarretta.com/free

Loved This Episode?

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⭐ Leave a review and share this episode with someone who feels stuck, overwhelmed, anxious, or exhausted from trying to "think" their way through healing.

⭐ Tag Dana @the_emdr_coach on Instagram and let us know your biggest takeaway.

Because healing gets easier when we stop doing it alone. 💛

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to another episode of The Truth About Healing, a podcast that's here to challenge everything you think you knew about therapy. I'm Dana Koretiskine, EMDR and Neuroinformed Therapist. And I'm on a mission to help 10 million people change their patterns, relationships, and future generations by teaching them how to gain control of their nervous system. Let's go with it. Welcome everybody back to another episode of The Truth About Healing. How are you doing today, Claudio?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Hello. Happy you're here. Good. How was the weekend?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

It was good.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We're coming out of uh Easter break. So I'm just coming back from my kids being home for a week. We went to Florida. Um, always good to have time with the family, but a week with the kids, I looked at my mom. We came back and I was like, I was like, I just need a minute. Like, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

You needed the routine back.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yes. I I completely decompensate usually without my routine. It is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

A mind-boggling thing. How quickly humans miss the thing that they kind of hate or don't want or because it's just the routine and they're almost like can't exist without that in place. Yep. It's wild. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Same in therapy, right? Like how people like hold on to like unhealthy habits or things like relationships that they know aren't good for them because it's comfortable. We will always choose what's familiar, even if it's what we don't want, because there's comfort in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Man, that that was a gem in itself. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

So today uh we're gonna do a little um chatting about overthinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Well, you got two candidates here.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Overthinking, I've seen um, like on our website, it is always the most the highest performing blog, the one that we have. Um, and it's something I think everybody nowadays struggles with, especially, you know, with the internet and chat GPT and all these things that really make it that much easier to overthink, because we have access to information all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, that's overthinking is a is a is a toughie. So, you know, I guess we're gonna jump right into the into the meat and potatoes here. Right. So overthinking has been a part of my life forever. And and I thought that that was just everybody.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

And as you kind of get older and you kind of experience it more, you kind of realize it's not everybody, but a lot of people. Yeah. And growing up, you know, overthinking, I never saw it as a bad thing because it always helped me kind of make different scenarios for different outcomes for different in case, in case just in case scenario, right? Yep. And so I always saw it as a as a virtue, like it's a good thing. So I kind of led my life and into my career into like everything that I've done. With the thought process, like the overthinking is great.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

And it's not until you start going down bad paths or paths that are not the most comfortable for you that the overthinking actually becomes probably one of the worst things that that can happen in your mind because you don't get out of that hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yep. You get stuck in a loop, right? And that kind of takes us to like this trauma-informed approach that we look at all symptoms with. So overthinking, we always say, like, what got you here won't get you there. So, what is overthinking and how do we kind of separate it from normal thought and things like that? Um, overthinking is when you will obsess and overthink stuff, overthink stuff and not take action.

unknown 3:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So if you've done things like you said when you were starting your career and stuff, and it that thinking process helped you actually execute, great. That's not really problematic. It becomes problematic when you start holding yourself back because of all of the thoughts, and we start having thoughts that we don't know if they're true or not. But sometimes we don't, there's no way to know if it's true or not. Like we all worry about what other people think, right? So, oh, I can't do this because so and so might think that. How do you know they're gonna think that? It was like if you if you could predict that, then I also want lottery numbers, like if you're that like that well thought out. Um so for you, do you see like that difference of like being thoughtful versus ruminating?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Well, yeah, 100%. And and and especially now in the in this phase of my life, now I'm starting. So yes, uh recognizing that what once was the thing that pushed me to do more, yeah. Um that's I've recognized that. So I uh and now it's not really doing that for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

But now the the the loophole that I find myself in because the ruminating, the the talking, the the the crazy scenarios of what I wonder what they'll say or what she'll say or blah blah blah. Predicting right. It's it's not it's nothing, nothing beneficial or positive or a solution is gonna come out of that entire conversation that's going in circles. Yep. So the question here really is cool. So I've identified it. I know it's a thing now. I know that what served me before doesn't serve me today.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Um identified.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Check. Yep. How do I get out of that? How do I do it? Out of this habit that you've been building, that I've been building for over 20 years, right, that served me well. So there's a lot of positive attachment to that, that form of that way of life. I don't know how to even explain it. Yeah, just how you always operate. Right. And so now you have to force yourself out of this habit that you've made because it's no longer serving you. Right. How do we get there? How do we throw it out?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

How do you yeah? So we know overthinking is a problem. What do we do about it now? Right? Yes. And the thing it's important to remember too is that there will still be situations where that's helpful. So the goal isn't to get rid of it all the time. It's to use that discernment of is this serving me right now? Sometimes the answer might be yes, sometimes it might be no. The quickest way to get out of your head is to get into your body.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

When you say get into your body, physical activity.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Literally, like yeah, movement, movement regulating um movement provides regulation. So if, because a lot of times if you think when you're overthinking, it's like a like the your foot's on the gas pedal going, go, going, but it's also on the brake at the same time and the wheels aren't going anywhere, they're just spinning. So if you start walking, you actually start working through the thoughts instead of looping on them. You can do things like um, if you want to completely get out of your head, just get into your body. Like we like to do um TPT, temperature, pressure, texture. So, like sometimes go like this. Like I'll tell my clients a little trick I always teach them is to just put your hands together and keep focusing until you can feel your pulse in your fingertips. And you have to really bring the focus in because it's so faint. And you have to focus.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

This is tough. Can you feel it? Really?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Mm-hmm. Are you overthinking? I can't do it, what's wrong with me? Blah blah blah. And I'm live. But you could also try like your wrist.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Well, that that these these I know. Yeah, these I've done before. Yeah. Um I feel like I'm I could if if if I focused a little bit longer.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I think I probably could because I can feel I feel something. I just don't know what it is. It's a very like odd sensation.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah. You just notice the sensation. Don't don't assign like a why what it is or things like that. Just notice it.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I think I felt it.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So You think or you feel?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Well, I I almost it's weird. I felt like pressure.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And it wasn't pressure because there'sn't there's nothing pressuring, but it was like it was like a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Um But that's how you get out of your head. I mean, for anybody who's watched Die Hard, it's like one of my favorite movies. Best Christmas movie. I don't care what anybody says.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I'm done with that.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

But it's best Christmas movie. You see, like when John has like his feet on the floor and he's digging his toes into the carpet, yeah, that's what he's doing. He's getting out of his head.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

That is what I can actually feel it now. I feel it on this finger, actually.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah, you feel where you feel it. There's no right or wrong. You just feel it where you feel it.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

But I'll tell you what it did do that in just in this very short time of me even overthinking. I wonder if I can feel this or whatever. Yeah, I'm I'm getting out of whatever is in my mind because I'm really trying very hard to focus on the feelings in my head.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Exactly. You have to like if you hyperfocus, and people who overthink tend to hyperfocus anyway, we just hyperfocus on the thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

On the wrong thing or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

So shift, shift the hyperfocus, like shift look at like we the five, four, three, two, one is a very common technique. Name five things you can see, four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you feel, one thing you can taste. Like it taste the coffee on my breath because I've been drinking it all morning. Um but that too, using your five senses, your five senses are your doorway to the present moment.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Is it common, especially in the beginning? Because I think like nothing like everything else, these are kind of habitual things that you kind of have to get in the routine of at least practicing them with certain frequency so that when the time comes, you can kind of just jump into it. Yep. So is it common for people to fight knowing that you know you have to do something, fight it and just purposely not do it? Or let's say, even like you force yourself into like going for a walk to kind of get your body moving. Yeah, and it's like the mind is like fighting what you're actually doing. And and you know it's almost like, well, I'm supposed to be like working out, I'm supposed to be detaching, I'm supposed to like, but it's not not allowed me. Is that a common thing in the beginning of these things?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yes. And here's the reframe that helps with that. Like you said, I'm supposed to be doing this. Are you, or do you want to?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Well, you probably want to, but yeah, it's it's your choice.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah, that's what what I tell clients all the time like, well, what do you want? A lot of times when people have like grown up in stressful environments and things like that, our choices were taken away. And we still operate as if we don't have a choice. We keep repeating that pattern. So when we get that shift of, you know, like, oh, I have to do this, I have to work out every day, like it's what you're supposed to do. Blah, blah, blah. Do you want to? Your answer could be no, right? Like everybody, like exercise, yes, it's healthy, but it could look different for everybody. Like, it doesn't have to be like hitting the gym, it could just be walking or like, you know, gardening, like is movement. Um, but what do you want? That's really, really important for a lot of people who have had their choices taken away for the majority of their life.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

That's interesting. Are there other techniques to prior to the overthinking moments to calm the mind or get into the habit of calming the mind? So in hopes of not falling into these rabbit holes of of overthinking?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, absolutely. So overthinking is really a manifestation of a dysregulated nervous system. Like everyone's probably heard me say 16,000 times, story follows state. So literally how you're feeling is gonna control how you're thinking. So things to practice before it gets to that point are getting into like a regulation routine. So things to help rewire your nervous system, therapy helps, right? Like EMDR therapy is a great way to regulate your nervous system without you having to think too much about it. It's like when you work with a trainer and you're like, you don't need to worry if I'm doing this right because that person's there will tell you. Um, so that's a great way. Breath work is a great way to regulate your nervous system. It doesn't work for a lot of people. It's so funny when they're like, oh, I want to take a deep breath, this and that. Breath can actually be triggering for a lot of people. But if if it works for you, a longer exhale engages the parasympathetic nervous system, which is your body's rest and digest. So if overthinking is a form of hypervigilance, where it's like anxiety, go, go, go, go, go, that's sympathetic nervous system. So when we breathe in, that's sympathetic. And when we breathe out, that's parasympathetic. So if we do a breathing technique where like um breathe in for four, out for eight, that actually helps to rewire your nervous system. Little things like that.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

It's very interesting. Um, so in the very little breath work that I do do, and I don't do many because it's but when I do, it's usually that. And I didn't know that's what I was doing. I know that I'm breathing in, I'm breathing in for like X amount of seconds, and then I'm holding for X amount of seconds. Yep. And then the breathe out is gotta be X amount of seconds, but more.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Right, like six, seven, eight, like, yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

And you're kind of and and then the way I would do it, it was just you you're almost like getting like fully being out of breath.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

And like emptying the tank. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

And which makes then the you know, round two and round three and so on.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Progressively the inhale, you try to make sure you get as much air in those four seconds as you can. Yeah. Because in the first, I mean, I know when I do it, it's like the first four seconds, like one, two, three, four, four, and I'm good. Yeah. And then by the second and third, I'm like making sure that every every second, it's like don't try too hard.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Don't try too hard. Remember, like you, you can't breathe wrong because your body's going to like keep you alive. That's what your body, your nervous system's always trying to do is keep you alive. But like this, like, am I breathing correctly? Right. That's like the the overthinking. But just breathing in, like a lot of times when we start meditation, we'll say, just notice your breath. Don't try to don't count yet. Just notice it. That's the first step. Notice when you breathe in, notice when you breathe out without having to do it a certain type of way. So I think we all kind of probably grew up of like being told what to do, right? It's part of being a kid. Like my son said to me last night, Ma, I love sourbelts. It's like a freaking problem. Like we all have our vices, that's mine. So he's like, Mom, I wish I could get to eat candy at night in bed like you do. And I was like, Is he calling me out? But but I said to him, I was like, you will when you're a grown-up. I didn't get to eat candy in bed when I was a kid either. And I felt just like you did, like really frustrated. And you will when you get older. When am I get older? I was like, when you go to college, then you could do it. Like, but this, like, you know, um, like that thing, like his overthinking and noticing what I do, all of that. Um but the I don't even know where we how I got to that point. I like derailed on the thought train, but but your breath and that helps you regulate enough and then your thoughts shift. Start thinking a little more clearly, or your thoughts change. The quality of your thoughts is always gonna be dictated by how you feel. You your body can make you seriously believe things that are not true.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, that's wild. I I I I agree with that statement. Because it's it's it's truth. And I don't think you I don't think people realize it how to realize how impactful that truth that truly is.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Because you know, through any day, we're going through like an emotional roller coaster of like things are happening throughout the day. Yeah, it could be it could be just a work day, it could be the boss, it could be the the uh event that happened, it could be some good things too. So you're kind of all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Always, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

And it's you know, and depending on how well you're able to, and I'm gonna use a bad word, but depending on how well you're able to control all that's not a bad word.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

It's not a bad word. Yeah. You I can see you do that too. You like assign like the judgment words, good or bad.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Try neutral.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

What are neutral words?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Anyone you want to be neutral. Right? Control is sometimes good, sometimes not. It depends. Right? I remember when I first started like being a therapist, like whenever I would ask a client something and say it depends, it would like, but I'm like, oh, this person can't make a decision, whatever. And I'm now, you know, 13 years down the road doing this, I'm like, no, they're right. There's nuance to everything. But when we talk about control, it's you know, locus of control, like we do that circle, things we can control, things we can't. So when you're if you're overthinking like crazy, what are the things that you can control? Shift your attention to that.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Um, when talking about overthinking, and we kind of said it a little bit before off camera. Um damn, I lost my channel thought. Hold on.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Um, derailed happens to me all the time. I'm like, what the hell point is I try to make?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

We're gonna cut this out, but I had I was like so fixated, not forgetting the question that I had next, and I forgot it.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

But that's what happens with overthinking too, because like our hyper focus, we're like, and I don't know about anybody else, but with like an adult with ADHD, a kid who grew up with it that didn't know I had it, I'm so afraid I'm gonna forget. Then I like stress about that, and then I forget what the hell, because I was so nervous, and it's all that optimal level of arousal that affects our memory. Optimal level, we can remember things too much, shuts down the way the hippocampus primarily functions, and then boom, where did our thought go?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, so I have another bad habit. I'm the I'm the one that interrupts because I know I don't want it to like leave my brain.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I literally got into a fight with my husband yesterday about that.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

So I'm that guy. Yes. And and no, when I'm very mindful of like, don't interrupt, don't interrupt, keep it in here, store it. And that's what just happened a second ago. Yeah. Because I don't want to interrupt you, right? Right. And I'm like, I I'm like listening to you, but I'm half listening. Now and I'm realizing that I'm like not even fully listening, but I am listening. Right. Because I'm trying to remember that thing. And before you know it, it was like poof, that went away, and poof, this. I didn't fully get everything. So I got stuck in like a what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Grab a pad. This is what I do. And this is literally comes up in therapy with my husband when we're in couples therapy. And then we talk about this of like, I my husband's a long talker, he's very long-winded.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Well, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

He and sometimes I joke with him, I'm like, you're circling the airport, babe, land the plane. Land the plane. But I I have a hard time with my executive functioning of remembering all the things he said, but I don't want to interrupt him. But I know there's like, oh, a point I wanted to make about that, or like a question I had about that. So we came up with in therapy, like, if we're having like a conversation or a conflict, we're trying to write, like, work through, I will literally get a pad and paper. So I can make just like I'm in session with clients, make notes of things. So then when he's done, I could be like, okay, and go down the points. And then I might look there and be like, oh no, he already answered that. Yeah. Uh a lot of times, like, I'll like, cause with our fast-thinking brain, like we'll already come up with a question and we'll always gonna get to that. And it's, but because we interrupt, we don't give them a chance. So a lot of times they'll answer that already. But just that having a place to park things helps with that anxiety. Plus, we're move like writing is movement. So that's helping regulate as well. So you're able to kind of hear like the other things that someone's saying. Like a lot of times when I'm in session when I'm doing EMDR, like I'll write the things that like people are saying. I very rarely go back to it, but that movement helps me stay regulated and present. So yeah, just grab a pen, paper, right? Just make notes to yourself of like, oh, I don't want to forget to say this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

I just found a pen though. Yeah, exactly. And now I find paper.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

But we place so much emphasis on ourselves as like adults to have to remember everything.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Well, I I think we want to be conscious of the other person. We want to make sure that we're attentive. Right. We want to make sure that when we get quizzed on the back end, that we it we can say yeah, or you know, hold the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

I think maybe that's Who's quizzing you in a conversation?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Well, maybe that's my brain. My brain is telling me, like, hey, Dana's talking to me. I I one, I better pay pay attention so that when it's my turn to speak, I'm not speaking just nonsense or losing the conversation because I just wasn't able to retain. So I think it's uh in my head, and it may not be everyone's head, but it's definitely in mine.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

You put so much emphasis on you need to do something, on the sense of responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Well, yes. Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Especially in this moment and definitely choose the overthinking because it, like you said, like I want to be attentive, and you are, you absolutely are, but I want to do it good enough. I want like this pressure to be perfect, and that takes you out of this or makes you feel so distressed that even when you're being attentive, you think you're not, and you start self-judging yourself of like, and then wondering, like, oh, if Dana looked that way, did that mean she noticed that I was not paying attention? And it like, is she mad at me now? Like, this is these are things people do all day long. I'm a very big believer of leave room for the conversation. A lot of times when like, and you're probably like me too, Claudia, where like we're also just very perceptive. Like people who are overthinking usually are good at noticing things in their environment. And then we'll tell ourselves, like, oh, that must mean this or that must mean that. There's no way to know for sure. But if it's important enough, ask the other person. Like, oh, and I noticed this. Did that mean something or whatever? Maybe it did or maybe it didn't, but if it's important enough, ask. Ask for clarity.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Okay. Um I made a statement earlier about I don't think this is a very ignorant statement. I was like, I think I said, I think a lot of people um Suffer from overthinking, but as I grow up, I realize not as many. So I said as a whole jumble of words that prop there was nothing was factual there. So I'm gonna ask you to be. Well, I'm gonna ask you with the right question now. Yeah. In hopes that this will spark more of the conversation. You know, can you do you have state uh could you have facts on how many people suffer from overthinking and or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Like data?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, some data stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I don't, but I would love to look into that.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

I would venture to guess a lot of people underreport because a lot of uh they get stuck overthinking. Yeah, like, oh, do I overthink? I don't know. Like, how do what's the right answer? Like, you're doing it right now.

unknown 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Um, I'm sure if we did a poll, and maybe I'll do this on Instagram, maybe I'll like throw up a poll of how many of you struggle with overthinking, and we can just get some data from our community.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, in the community. Yeah, because that that's an interesting question because again, until until it got kind of you know, harmful or or it wasn't beneficial on my end, yeah. I never saw it as a bad thing. Right. So I never had you asked me maybe 10, 15 years ago, oh, do you are you an overthinker? I probably would have been like, no, no, I just think the right amount and make sure I'm particularly. You'll use another adjective to kind of kind of you know, but that's like that's important.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Go ahead. I just cut you. See, I just did it too. No, it's cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I'm I'm just gonna continue the same thought. It's just as as you get older and as you see that not it's not always beneficial, now I recognize, yeah, it's it's overthinking. And then when the thoughts are not the best, that's when you're like, well, okay, now this is a problem, right? Right, right. So that's why I kind of asked like those questions because I I I would probably think that a lot of people out there do overthink and they just don't recognize it. They don't, they don't, you know. So how do you how would you tell the viewers about how to recognize if you're overthinking and kind of what to do from that point?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

If your thinking gets in the way of you taking action, that's the best way to think of it because planning is just being intentional. So there's nothing wrong with that. Um when it's when you plan, plan, plan, but you don't execute, what's happening there? Why are you not executing? Is there avoidance? Are you worrying about it being perfect? Or like, but usually there are thoughts there that you might not even be aware of. But when it gets in the way of execution, that's a telltale sign.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Is overthinking a physical trait that you're born with, or is it something that you develop with time?

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Great question. Uh, it can be both. So it could be neurological, which is like ADHD, is a neurological condition that you're born with. And it can um, that's when you think, think, think. It's what I said before, uh, my chiropractor calls it a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes. So sometimes you just have very high intelligence and the slower processing speed. So you think, think, think, think, think, but don't actually process the things that you're thinking and you're like, how did I get here? Um, Drew Lynch is a really funny comedian and he does this whole skit on his wife with ADHD. My husband loves it because he's like, That's my life. Um he goes, My wife is like a Roomba. She just goes from like one place to the other and like bangs into something, and now she's in another room, and he's you follow the trail of broken dreams. And my husband's just like, literally, that's our house, where you're like, you were working on a project and now you're here, and whatever. So that's like the you know, the fast working brain. Um, but there's the neurological and then trauma, things that happen, experiences in the absence of an empathic witness, those things that happen to us create a dysregulated nervous system, which can manifest as overthinking as the symptom.

unknown 25:56

Damn.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah. So things that happen that make you more hyper-vigilant over overthink.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

So I don't want to ask more questions because then it's gonna go deep into me. But I can you can you talk more about that final sentence? Um experiencing tr uh trauma without a empathic witness. Empathic witness? Yes. And how that can trigger or start this this right overthinking.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Can you talk more about that so I don't pull myself out there?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Well, you're always welcome to come out, but I'll never force you. Um but you're always welcome. But we trauma in the absence of an empathic witness, that's uh Gabor Matei, who is wonderful if anyone has seen his his talks and his research. But it's not what, not just what happens to us that determines whether or not we get traumatized. It's who or who wasn't there for us. So if we go through a really distressing experience, but there was a safe person to help us co-regulate, that helps us work through the nervous system response so that it doesn't affect us long term. And co-regulation is something that like when we say like um, oh, I can't self-regulate, self-regulation is uh is learned. It cannot be learned if like you think of a baby. A baby needs to be given co-regulation if they're ever going to develop the ability to self-regulate. Emotion regulation is not something you're born with. It has to be taught. So when we look at kids who are super dysregulated, we also have to look at the people around them and say, like, well, is anyone teaching this child how to co-regulate? Showing like how to take a deep breath, or just like when a baby cries, we pick them up and hold them and that soothes them. That skin-to-skin contact is co-regulation. So that's when we can tell, like whether or not an experience traumatizes us or not, is who was there for us and who wasn't. You know, in some, it's not every, there's nuance to everything. So I never want to say anything's like black and white. Sometimes there could be an event that was so overwhelming to the nervous system in a short period of time that even if there was like a safe person, it's the nervous system still didn't get to actually process everything because it was so much all at once. But that's an important piece because let's say if we go through something and it's very overwhelming, but then we talk about it to somebody and like we just someone gave a shit about how we felt, then that we get that anxiety out and we get co-regulated and we feel better. If we don't get that, we stay in that state. And we're continuing to seek out something to help us process it, we do that subconsciously. We seek out scenarios unconsciously, right? While like people seek conflict because they're trying to get something resolved. They just don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

So, how do you how would one heal from said trauma or start healing?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

My first thought is EMDR. I mean, EMDR is one tool. There's millions of not millions, but there are um wonderful trauma-informed approaches. Um, but that's the first step is working with an individual who has training and experience. I will always give the cat caveat that I'm sorry, but there's a lot of fucking crazy therapists out there that really shouldn't be therapists. I'm gonna be the first to fucking admit it. There was a million people out there like who haven't done their own work but will um try to get someone to do theirs. You can only take a client as far as you're willing to go in your own work. So you that doesn't mean you have to heal all your shit, but then ethically, you have to say, I'm not the best person to help you with the scenario. You don't have to say, because I went through something similar, I haven't worked through it, but we're far out for the benefit of that person.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

So it's so what I got from that answer is you know, you need to seek out some some help and find some the right person for you, and hopefully somebody that knows what they're talking about. Right, right. Um is there any is there a way or another way to do this kind of on your own without the the the professional help?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Absolutely. And you know, it's not lost on me that not everybody has access to quality care.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Which is why, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Yeah, and it's a real issue. Um so there are absolutely things you can do. Um, there's um like the book I wrote, like the EMDR Therapy Progress Journal, all the stuff in there, like the preparation strategies, the nervous system regulation strategies, you can do at home. It's just um to do it alone is the caveat to that is you can't you went through the trauma, you got traumatized because you were alone. Staying alone isn't going to help because that's why you were traumatized in the first place. So seek out relationships for somebody whose relationships are very unsafe. It's gonna be really, really hard. So know that it's hard and be willing to be vulnerable. That's how you work through it. And there's like a lot of um giving yourself the optimal level of exposure so you don't overwhelm your nervous system with too much at once. You know, just knowing yourself that's the best place to start. And then you can start to seek out individuals. You know, you can, I'm sure like go on meetups and things like that, like find your people. As human beings, we were not wired to be alone. The UCLA loneliness scale study showed that human beings who scored higher uh felt sense like of loneliness had a 20-year-less life expectancy. So if you feel more lonely, you die sooner. That's crazy. Not if you are more alone, if you feel lonely. That's the difference because you could be surrounded by a group of people and feel alone.

unknown 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

And that's a big difference. So that's like being vulnerable is is a very good place to start. And it's really scary.

unknown 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

So I I was gonna tie this a little bit to something you said earlier in hopes I'm correct. But this is part of kind of like co-regulating, right? If you're finding people that that are like-minded or like you, or at least the very least, you can kind of bounce things off of each other. Yeah, that's that's I'm assuming because the question that I had was how does an adult co-regulate? Because you explained how a baby co-regulates in a child, but as adults, you know, we're not gonna be held, we're not gonna be coddled.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

You never get a hug.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

I'm like, I'm Italian, I'm gonna hug you all the time. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

But you know, so so that was a question. How does an adult co-regulate? And I'm assuming this is kind of the answer. It's like finding people that you kind of can bond with, that you can be vulnerable with and and feel yeah, but think about that. So that that is that's an interesting way of approaching this, right? And it makes all the sense in the world because I think you're 100% right. Well, no, I think I know you're 100% right.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I'm wrong a lot too.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, but um as an ad as adults, it's very hard for adults, one, to just go make new friends. Oh, it's period.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Impossible for somebody who people are not safe.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Right. Then let alone be vulnerable. Yeah. That's an even bigger step.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Um, so you know that that's hard. How how do how do we how do we tell adults, how do we tell audience people, adults in the audience, you know, it's okay to to to lower your guard, lower the walls, and yeah, and kind of, you know, enter that, this, this playing field.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yeah. Well, then the first relationship to start with is the one with yourself. Before you start engaging other people, get to know yourself. Curiosity of what am I feeling? A lot of us don't even know what we feel. Just start asking the question. You don't have to have the answer. So, what I say all the time as a therapist, I don't have the answers. I just have questions to ask, and that can help guide us to what the answer is. So just start like when you have that response, if you're like interacting and something activates you, you know you're healing when you say to yourself, Why am I reacting this way? Instead of just engaging in the behavior and making it about someone or something else. When we say, Why is this bothering me so much? That's when you start getting to know yourself. Start there. That relationship is the one that needs work before, because you can't connect to anybody if you're not connected to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

What do you tell the overthinker that that let's say we're going down this path and I'm starting from within?

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

And I'm asking questions about how do I feel or why do I feel this way? Yeah. And you just don't have an answer that you can physically give. Well, how how do you navigate through that? How do we work through that?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

So, my like thought immediately is like that's where therapy is helpful. Um just come to therapy. Right, just come to therapy, right? And there's, I mean, there's also a lot of places for people who can't access care that do have support. There's like family services of Westchester Bice, like that, they do like a lot of pro bono work. Um so there there are places to go, even if you don't have the means for like, you know, private pay therapy.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Um Is this also part of the overthinking, though? Because even the the little example scenario that I gave you, is that kind of part of that hamster wheel of falling into that?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

So the biggest function usually of overthinking is that it stops you from feeling. And for a lot of people who never felt safe, it wasn't safe to feel their emotions. Think if you grew up as a kid, anytime you had a feeling you got the shit kicked out of you, it's not safe to feel how you feel. So your head was the safest place to be. So that's where you know, those people are like, I don't know how I feel. Well, and then start going down that. It's really because it's not that you don't know how to feel, it's that you don't feel safe feeling. And oh, why don't I feel safe? You know, we all like a lot of people come to my office, don't even think that they've had like difficult childhoods because they thought it was normal. And we start talking, and I'm like, wow, got beat every time something happened. They're like, Yeah, like other people don't. And like just because other people do also doesn't mean it's good. It's like all the research shows that like corporal punishment with our kids was not effective. I was a child of the wooden spoon and I thanks, grandma. Like, but there's a reason why I was all hijacked all the time, right? Because you're afraid of what's gonna happen next. But getting to know yourself of it's not that I don't know how to feel, I might just not have had space to even consider it because I was always having to make sure I stayed safe, assessing for danger, assessing like if where the next like slipper's gonna get thrown at me or something. And oh, if I do have a really big feeling, I don't know what that is. Little, little kids, they don't know what the fuck is going on in their body. They need someone to tell them what it is, and then they go, Oh, and then they feel safe feeling it because they know what like what it is. You know, like my son will I see him biting his nails. I'm like, Are you nervous? No, I'm not nervous. What are you thinking? Oh, this kid at school, blah, blah, blah. Oh, honey, that's that's nervous. And oh and now, and now I I love this. This is where I feel like I've done my job well as a mom. He I could see when he gets dysregulated, and he comes to me and says, Mom, I'm having some big feelings. Can I talk to you? And I can't tell you what that like I melt, but I'm like, Yep, bring it in. Like it's so that he doesn't feel alone with his big feelings. And because he's a kid with ADHD, we've had him evaluated and everything, he does just viscerally feel emotions really big. Like if you put someone with ADHD in like a functional MRI machine and see the areas of the brain that light up with pain, it brights up, lights up more in an individual with ADHD versus a neurotypical person. So like the sensation of that emotion is much stronger. So I don't want him to feel that alone. I tell my time, I can't fix all the feelings, but I can sit with you through them. That's what I tell my clients too. I I can't fix all your feelings because feelings, every feeling has a function and matters.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

That's super powerful. So uh Dana, for for those those out there that may be interested in in checking out your book and hopefully starting, because I think that's a very easy way, a soft start, right? You start with with with the the workbook, um, which I have because you've given it to me. And uh, you know, you can start very softly that way, and that way it eventually can lead into possibly seeking out therapy or doing whatever. Where can people find this book?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

They can find it on Amazon where everything is sold. It's on Amazon. It's also available as a uh digital download on my website for anybody who just like likes things digitally. You could put it, download it to like an iPad or a Kindle and you could write on it that way. Um I love that. That's what I do with my iPad Pro and my pencil. Um, yeah, so Amazon, uh my website, um, where you could check it out. And that's the biggest the biggest reason I wrote that book was from all my years as an EMDR therapist, you find yourself saying the same things over and over again, right? So I'm like, okay, this is information that would be really helpful for the mass amounts of people to know even before they start EMDR, because that that psychoeducation piece of how EMDR works and how like the neuroscience, the our nervous system, my favorite chapter is the one about the nervous system. Shocking, like, but that is the information that gives everyone what they need to know to then do the deeper work.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

It's important for everyone to uh have space to just be. And instead of this, like we all do this, and this is the overthinking. Like this is where like my Springer's final thoughts kind of comes in. But what I'll leave everyone with is it's overthinking, it it it's what we all do, but uh we need to give ourselves space to just be. If you're overthinking, just notice that you're overthinking. Don't even try to change it yet, but just notice it as the first step with anything. Just give yourself a space to be without sounding judgment. Then we can start moving forward with stuff. You know, Carl Rogers is one of my favorite psychologists that I've studied, the founder of person-centered therapy. And his famous quote is the curious paradox is only when I accept myself as I am do I then have the capacity to change. And that's important for everyone to remember. You can't change without acceptance. So I'm gonna leave everybody with that nugget of wisdom. So I hope that you guys enjoyed our chat today. I think it was really powerful. Um, definitely let me know in comments and things like that what your experiences are. The biggest thing I want for this podcast as well is to spark conversation and communication, to let everybody know they're not alone with what they're struggling with. Let's normalize a lot of these things so we can find our people and work through stuff, right? So definitely let's start the conversation and we will see you on the next episode of The Truth About Healing. Thanks for coming by. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Truth About Healing podcast. If you know someone who's still stuck, share this episode with them. Because as you know, the truth can set them free. And if you're ready to get started to see what you need to repair, contact us at peacefulliving mental health counseling.com and we will get you started. Until next time, I'm Dana Coretta Stein, reminding you we repeat what we don't repair. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health or medical advice. Listening does not create a therapist client relationship. If you need support, contact a licensed professional or your local emergency services.