Episode 3: A Therapist's Journey From Panic Attacks to Healing (ft. Frank Sarrapochiello)

Most people hear about EMDR and think it's just moving your eyes back and forth.

It's not.

In this deeply honest conversation, Dana sits down with Peaceful Living therapist Frank Voce, who brings a rare perspective: he's experienced EMDR both as a client and as a newly trained EMDR therapist.

After years of traditional talk therapy, panic attacks, anxiety, and feeling stuck, Frank found himself facing something he never expected—unprocessed trauma connected to 9/11 that was still impacting his nervous system decades later.

Together, Dana and Frank pull back the curtain on what EMDR actually feels like, why healing isn't always comfortable, and what happens when your nervous system finally gets the opportunity to process what it's been carrying.

In this episode, you'll learn:

✨ Why talk therapy sometimes isn't enough

✨ How trauma can show up years later as anxiety and panic attacks

✨ What EMDR processing actually feels like from the client's perspective

✨ Why healing can feel uncomfortable before it feels freeing

✨ The role of nervous system regulation and resourcing in trauma recovery

✨ Common misconceptions about EMDR

✨ What therapists often get wrong about EMDR treatment

✨ Why the relationship between therapist and client matters so much

✨ The difference between remembering a traumatic event and reliving it

If you've ever wondered whether EMDR is right for you—or you've felt frustrated that you understand your struggles intellectually but still can't seem to move past them—this episode offers an honest look at what healing can really look like. 

Key Takeaway

Healing isn't about erasing the past. It's about helping your nervous system recognize that the past is over.

Because as we always say:

We repeat what we don't repair.

Connect With Dana

📍 In-Person Therapy: Scarsdale, NY

💻 Virtual Therapy: Available for residents of NY, NJ, CT, FL & CO

📅 Learn more or schedule a consultation:
 www.peacefullivingmhc.com

Additional Resources

🧠 EMDR Resources for Clinicians & Clients
www.danacarretta.com/shop

🛠️ Recommended Therapy Tools, Regulation Resources & EMDR Systems for Clinicians
www.danacarretta.com/therapytools

🎁 Free Nervous System Resources
www.danacarretta.com/free

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Because healing gets easier when we stop doing it alone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today we're diving into what it feels like during the EMDR process, both from the client and therapist perspective, all from one man who knows what it feels like to be on both sides. Frank is a therapist in our office at Peaceful Living. He just completed his first weekend of EMDR training, and he's also experienced EMDR himself as a client, which gives him a really unique perspective. Frank, thank you for being here and for willing to share your story with us.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

So tell me a little bit about um just how you got into EMDR in the first place. How'd you find out about it?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Um, so I actually found out about EMDR. It was kind of interesting. I found it because I was doing talk therapy for years. And I was stuck. And um my therapist, uh, who's currently my therapist, Dan, um, he actually told me, listen, we're stuck. Like there's no progress here. Right. And we need to find something to help you. I don't know. We it was like my defenses were up in a way.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

But but it was like I couldn't get to what I needed to.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

So what symptoms were you still experiencing that weren't getting better with the the talking?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I was having panic attacks um and we were trying to understand where they were coming from. And we were doing talk therapy, and it was really interesting because the panic attacks just came all of a sudden. And, you know, I was trying to figure out what was causing them.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So I was going, so I was on medication for depression and then some uh anxiety and medication, but they were still coming. So I had to like also take Xanax when I had to take like when they were coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

They're anyone who's ever experienced a panic attack, they're debilitating.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, debilitating because I thought I thought I was gonna die. Yeah, it feels that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

It feels that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

At one point, I think I was on the train and it was happening, and I was just like, oh my god, this is how I'm gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

This is how I'm gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

When you were on the train.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I'm on the train. I was like, I'm gonna die going to work instead of going to the beach and dying on a beach. Where I wanna die. That's where I wanna die. Not in this smelly, godforsaking train.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Um, with all these other people. So um it was like it was we had it, like we were just stuck, and it was like it was still happening, and I was getting frustrated.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah. And did you know what might be triggering them at that point, or you really just you weren't sure?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It was just bad. Like it was like we were talking about certain things. I thought it was a stress, I thought it was about my work and so forth, but nothing was really happening. Right. Like it just kept like repeating and like and the symptoms were not getting any better. And I was just getting tired, right? Right. And I was just getting frustrated because as you know, panic attacks take so much out of you physically, mentally, and everything. So by the time I was at work, I was exhausted already because my body had just literally went through like a panic attack.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

It's like your body runs a marathon, except you don't go anywhere, like it's awful.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Especially me that loves to exercise. So for me, I was like her tennis elbow. Like, what are we like I get shit and like you know, and like I'm like, what? Right. Um, so we had a discussion, we talked, um, and he recommended EMDR.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

So I was like, what is EMDR? So he says, you know, they use it um for people who have like underlying traumas, and uh and he couldn't really explain it to me either. He just said they use it for people who are like soldiers and like things that have traumas. And I was like, all right.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Usually initially known for.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Right. Yeah. So I was like, all right, I'll try it. Why not?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So I was already trying everything under the sun pretty much. Like medicate like nothing was doing it. Right. So um I tried it and it was.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Did you do like any research beforehand before you like started calling people?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Like I should have, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Okay. Well, that's not some not always a bad thing. Sometimes the more information we know can not be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah, and I didn't want to cloud my judgment on it. Smart. You know? Like, um I'm going open-minded. Yeah, yeah. And I think when you have to do therapy, a lot of times you really need to be open-minded and give it a chance.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Um, especially when it comes to theories that um that a lot of people really don't know about. Right. And like interventions, I mean. Like, so I wanted to try it out. So I just jumped in.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

And, you know, that's how we met. And um I was the best time ever. The best time ever. Um it was interesting. Um, I can actually say that EMDR has made my life after doing the whole process, coming out of it has made me more aware of myself and my my thoughts. And when I'm like, wait a minute, something's off.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Like being more tuned to my like what's going on with me.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

You notice the the the inside things before they hijack you completely.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I get like crazy and anxiety goes through the roof. But at least I can take a step back and be like, got it. This is what's triggering it, and this is why I think it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Let me go and like do. And I think we've done sessions, and then recently I came back and I said, Can we just do like a follow-up ENDR thing just to like clear a tune-up, right? I think that's what you call a tune-up. Um, and it was interesting because it does help, right? And it it it really stopped the panic attacks for me in that sense. And I was able to just relax. And then once that memory and that thing was processed better, I was able to start working on other things.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Right. It kind of like cleared up this cleared like the thing that you didn't even know was there.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Right. And it's like, well, like, you know, as we know in EMDR, the tragedy is like sort of like something stuck in your brain. Like it's like clogging your your natural brain from processing it.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

So it was like EMDR really helped doing like to untangle the the knot that was there so that way my brain could technically.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

It could just flow. It could do what the brain does naturally.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah. And I to this day, I still remember that day in your office where I opened my eyes and we had done finished processing one of the biggest things, and it was about 9-11. Um, and um sitting in that room and opening my eyes, and everything was clear. I remember that. Like, and everything was still, everything was vibrant. I felt so centered.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

I remember that like it was yesterday. Right?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah. And to this day I still chase that. It's like people chase like other things. I chase that moment. And I think it's that moment where people always say, Oh, like with meditation or like being centered and being at peace. Yeah. I was at peace.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Like everything just quiet. Like I was one with everything. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

What got you to that point? So we know like the how the processing works. So what ways did you see it work for you specifically while you were in it?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I think I saw it in different ways. Like you had like for me, it was going my body needed to go there in a way. My brain needed to process that trauma. Yeah. And it was hard because I remember I was like for the like when you do the processing, it it takes time, right? It it's not only one session, especially depending on the trauma. Right. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

But um it was interesting to feel like did you even know that 9-11 could be contributing to your panic attacks before you started?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

No, I actually didn't. Actually, that's a good question. Like, I didn't even think. I was like, I'm done with that. I I like that. I was like, I'm done with it. Like, I processed that. I processed it. I was like, what the hell? What the hell is this all about? Like us going, like where the brain led me to. I was thinking it was gonna go somewhere else. Right. I literally thought I was gonna go to the to the oh my god. I'm not gonna say the I'm not gonna say a curse word.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Uh hello, have you met me? Let it rip. This is the truth about healing.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

We'll say the bitch of my old deviled uh boss who drove me absolutely nuts.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

I thought it was gonna go, I was gonna go to somewhere like that's where it was going. Like I thought that were where we were going with it, but no, it didn't. It actually went somewhere totally different.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

And I remember when we targeted that memory at one point I was not ready. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And oh yeah, that's right. Your protector part came together. I told you to back up, bitch.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I was like, don't you dare.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

But um, yeah, it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah. Um also shows too, like that's what's cool with EMDR is you can have an idea of what your might be causing your symptoms, but it's better to go in with that open mind because yeah, it might be that, but we don't know, but the nervous system will tell us.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's interesting how it works, right? Yeah. It's like, um, but once I started pro we started process, I started processing it because remember, EMDR is more of you going through it and processing it. And the the therapist is just there to help you and and like just be there and be present and help you guide you. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Well, we say we're like the conductor keeping the train on the tracks, but it's your nervous system doing the work. Right. The difference between EMDR versus talk therapy is in talk therapy, the therapist is the agent of change.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Versus with EMDR, your nervous system is the agent of change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Which I love, right? Because how empowering. Yeah. And it's so crazy how we really don't truly understand how the power that our mind has, like our brain to self-heal. Like, I don't think people really realize that.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Like we're wired to survive.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

So going through that and understanding that and processing it really helped. Like that understanding how that moment, that moment, that trauma 9-11 really had trickling effects throughout my life and to the present day. Right. And how I was reacting to things in the present day and how I was getting triggered by it.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Right. Would you mind telling everyone, even like the train, right? That was a big trigger for you. Would you mind telling everyone that where that association came from?

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah. So it was interesting because I was getting on at work in the platforms on on the Metro North, and it started for me, it ultimately landed that it was the temperature in the in the train. It was the moment of me heading into the city and going downtown where I work. Um and having that triggered danger. You're going into the area where danger was, right? Right. Which was interesting because I worked down there for years and never really happened. And then that like this was triggered.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Such a huge event.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Such a huge event. And um, but then that I realized that that was it. But it was interesting because that also triggered me having eventually starting to have panic attacks going on planes.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Right. And that's the generalization effect, right? It's um that's why it's so important to work on an experience before it really does generalize to other areas of your life because it's like this like spillover.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Like, okay, right now it's just affecting me on trains, but left untreated, it can just spread into all areas of life. And that's when it starts to look like generalized anxiety. Yeah. It's really just untreated.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, no. And it was really affecting me in other aspects. Like I know that in certain moments I can't like enclosed environments. Like when I get into like environments that are really closed in and like I don't have control.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Not good for me. Yeah. It wasn't like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

How not in control you were that day.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't. Like, I don't think anybody was. And I think to like now that I look back at it and I see I'm a very very visual person. Yes, you were. So like the images do flash in once in a while. Yeah. But they're not as disturbing to me. Don't get me wrong. Like a lot of people think, oh, EMGR is gonna wipe it out. It's not white.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

It's not like I would say it's not the men in black thing where we're like shone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And the memory's still there, right? But you're just not reacting to it as the way that you are. Right. Right. Because your brain did learn something from it in those moments.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Right. Um, how you process and what you came out of it.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

But yeah, the memory's still there. It's just not as triggering as it was.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Like, you know, it's like it becomes an autobiographical memory versus a reliving.

unknown 13:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Whatever you just said.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you just went through the training, the first weekend of basic training for EMDR. Now you're becoming a therapist and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So what did that do for you? So going through the training this first weekend, it's a lot of information.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Oh my God. It was like it was like waterboarding. I think I'm traumatized. I think I really need I think there's a lot of EMDR after that. Just go with that.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Go with that. Go with it. Go with it, right? Yeah. Um if I just triggered anybody doing this, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Close your eyes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah, yeah. Close your eyes.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Um but even that, like when you're learning kind of the how it works in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, it was really eye-opening. It actually gave me the basics about it, but working with you recently and learning from you has been tremendous because obviously the way that you explain EMGR and how you do it really is why I chose to get trained in EMGR. Um, because I know how useful it is for clients and for how useful it was for me. But learning it in in class, like in this training was very interesting because I saw the things that you did with me. And then I'm like, oh this is why she did this. This is why she did that. Because there is a protocol. Like it's not like talk therapy, like interventions that it's sort of like something to talk about. There are specific steps to everything. Right. And they're different phases, right? And it's interesting because clients really what they what people see on television and everything else is this light bar that goes like this. Right. Oh, sorry. Um, this is what happens when you're Italian, fling your arms and fly everywhere, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Everywhere, like boom.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Um I love that.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Tell an Italian to sit on their hands and explain a spiral staircase. Yeah, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. We can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

What? Um I don't even know what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Oh sorry, my ADD 10 cents and rail people. Yeah. So the training, you were like, uh, there's phases, that's why that's why she did those things.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, so the phases, and I'll think, yeah, social media with the bar and like even with TV shows and stuff like that. I know you freaked out like a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Only order. It's like one of my favorite shows, and they were going like this. I'm like, first of all, that's not how you do it.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, it's like no winshi walking. No winchy wipering, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

My husband still likes to make fun of them.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, no winchy wiping. Um so it's interesting because that's what people really imagine what EMDR is. Right. But they that's like a small part, and that I think is like phase four. Right. And it's really not the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

It's not just the part property.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And where everything really happens and where the real work sometimes really happens is in like phase one to phase three, I think. Right. Those preparations. Preparation phases, trying to get like the memory or the target memories, the resourcing, right? Having that relationship with your therapist is super important because you cannot do EMDR if you don't trust that therapist on the other end.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

I totally agree. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

And if you feel that your therapist is like one of those therapists that just sit there and was like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. And they don't have like there, there's no like emotion or anything in it. Right.

unknown 17:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

It's not gonna work. Like you really need somebody who's gonna have to feel safe. Yeah. Like be with you and and talk to you about it, right? And just be there safe.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Exactly, to have like connection, right? And that's where like one thing I've said, like, um Bessel van der Koelk, who's wrote The Body Keeps the Score and everything, in the chapter about EMDR, you know, he has so many amazing insights into trauma, but I think he got this wrong where he said, you know, you don't even have to like your therapist to for EMDR to be effective. Yeah, maybe you don't like like is like a that word could be loaded. You have to feel safe with your therapist.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah, and how do you feel safe if you don't like your therapist? I that's like safe enough, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Because sometimes it's yeah, it's the like depends on how we I agree to disagree. Yeah, but he's like, I like I disagree with him too that you do have to like them enough to because then if not, what are what kind of work is gonna get done? There's gotta be a connection there.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, you have to be connected. There's no way, right? Um, especially for the where you're going with that and where your memory takes you to places that you really didn't think you had, and then all of a sudden it relives these like moments in your life that are all hard, right? There for there is a reason why the brain like has not been able to process it, right? Those are traumatic events that your brain really didn't process correctly.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Too much all at once, too little for too long, or too much for too long, all jams up a brain's natural healing process.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah. Right. And I think um that's how um it should be, like the therapist needs to be there to support you, but you're doing the work, right? Absolutely. And listen, it's EMDR is a technique that you really need to make sure that your therapist knows.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, well said well said.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Because if they don't know how to do it, then you can end up fucked up. I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean that's in a way, like it can like you, you're not able, like some of the traumas like will be triggered and you're not able like, and it's yeah, you need to have that containment, right? Like the container or like have all these resources where again the first three phases are super important, right? Because that's when your therapist and you decide if you're really ready to move on to phase four and processing. Right. Because if you don't do the work, and that's where a lot of clients I think have that difficulty and saying, why aren't we doing it yet? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

And come into your office, like, okay, I'm ready to start. Let's do EMDR.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

And you're like, ER? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah. Yeah. But you don't have to be moving your eyes to be doing EMDR. Yeah. And I think one thing we've talked about a lot in the past too is that that phase two, that um stabilization work, for some clients, like that is the most effective part of the treatment. Like after they get through those um emotion regulation exercises and things, that clears up. And then everything else kind of just processes on its own.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah. I think you know, one thing that I think every therapist should know and should do EMDR training and do it. I think it's maybe I'm wrong, but um calm place. Yeah, uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Say more, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

So I think calm place, knowing how to do it and creating it for someone, especially someone who has anxiety and is being triggered and so forth, having the having the body, the mind have a place where it can go and relax and be calm and still and able to process sometimes a place like certain things, gives it the regulation. And I think we as humans are not trained. We were never trained to do that. Right? We have this foo thing of like, oh, meditate, meditate, and like whatever. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Go to your happy place.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Go to your happy place. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

But how is this different?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

But this is different because your brain, you're literally EMDR gives you that little like uh session that you try to create that like safe place or calm place. Um you're helping the client really ingrain it in their mind and imagine it, or even and if people can't use like image, right? They can feel the sensations, the smell, what are you feeling like, whatever, to create a place just for them.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Exactly. That's the difference, right there, right? It's inviting the five senses in to create. That space because, like we were saying before, when we were talking, like we need our five senses to integrate an experience and to actually learn it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah. And I think it's interesting because if someone is having an anxiety or like whatever, I when I have trouble, and this is I'm just speaking for me, when I have trouble sleeping and my brain is racing, I say the word of my safe place, and then I it the image comes to my brain, like my head starts processing and like and I just fall asleep.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah. And did you do in training? Like you installed that with the bilateral, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah. I did with like I installed it. So that's why I'm saying some therapists should at least know how to do this. So that way, if a client of theirs and your talk therapist or like whatever, but like if you know how to do this and you're trained in it, right? This could be a tool for you to help your client not maybe they don't want to, like you always say, resolution or reduction, right? Maybe they just want to reduce their symptoms, right? This is something for them to reduce their symptoms.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah. When I used to work with kids, I would call it the pause button. Right? Like we all need a pause button. When life is crazy, whatever, let's just pause and take a minute to settle. Like if you have a snow globe and you shake it and the snow's going everywhere, you have to put it down.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

And then watch the snow settle, right? That's the same with our nervous system. That's what a complex does for someone, is like going there. And when you install it with that bilateral, that actually creates. I always use, you know me, my analogies. Like you could do something like, okay, visualize a complex, a happy place. But when you do the bilateral, it's like you're you're paving a road faster. So you've got like 10 different trucks paving that road. So it's getting, it's getting done quicker versus like slowly walking over that road over time, it becomes more um a like learned path. So it just speeds up the learning.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, I don't know. The listen, we all know my husband's a scientist and like whatever. I'm more of like, I don't, I can't process a lot of the scientific. That's why you guys are a great team. I just can't. But I don't know what the hell's happening, like with the bilateral. Like I know they explained it a little at work uh in class and like whatever, and how it like it's sort of like a hack they found, like the eye movement and the bilateral to get into the brain to help you process it. Right. But I don't know what it is when you do this, like tapping and like whatever that image or something in your brain, it gets like encoded into you. Like your brain is it's encoded in there.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

It's a like so think if you're using the tactile ones, right? That is a sensory component.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

So you're inviting a sense in to as you're visualizing that and that that taxing the working memory, so to speak, that helps balance that optimal level of arousal to have the right level of, I forget the neurotransmitter is Sean might help me with this adrenal corticotropin, whatever that has balances with optimal cortisol so that the amygdala and the hippocampus can stay on online at the same time. Sorry, everybody, I'm a giant nerd when it comes to science. But that basically helps stabilize the to have the right amount of stress so that you can learn it. Too much stress, your brain won't remember. Too little, it never actually gets like thrown up to like become learned.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I love you, but I got stuck at arousal. Sorry. She's like going on explaining things. I'm like arousal.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

I like it. So no deep science really, that's a funny word. That's arousal. Yeah. Yeah. That's around. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

This is what happens when we go off track.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

This is what happens, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Um what do you think? Um, had you not done EMDR before the training, how might your training experience have been different?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

I would have thought about it as a woo-hoo.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

What way?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Like, oh my God, what is this? Like hypnotism? Like, what is this shit? Like, pretty much, like, what is this? Like, honestly, people that like don't know it. They think they're being like, there's like, oh, this is like a hypno hypno thing. This is like not talk therapy. This is not like what is this? Like, yeah, this is really gonna help.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

But you actually get to feel it because you felt it in the right.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

I knew I knew the power it has.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah. It's much different when you feel the effects of something.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, and I think that's why I'm so passionate about it. And I think it was funny because in training, I was like, why don't they just give this in school to everybody?

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah. Yeah, they didn't even teach really EMDR when I went to grad school. It it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

No, no, I mean everybody like needs to take the SATs.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

You before you go to college, yeah. You need to do like at least a sit like a couple of sessions of EMDR.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Like old college grad, like old high school kids, because I think our world would be a better place.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Imagine if we didn't need MDR because from when we were born, we knew the importance of being a regulated presence for other humans and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah, but that's me being really Yeah, that no, that's not that's not gonna happen. Right. Like, like I think just as human nature is, it's like we are like um a we are a species that constantly is like in motion, emotion, right? Emotions run wild with us, no matter what we do, right? We try to be centered as much as we can, but emotions are part of us, right? Right. I think emotions are the best part of humanity. You know? Yeah, it makes us who we are. It makes us not robots, it makes us not robots, right? And whoever is using chat GDP for your for therapy. For therapy, stop. Yeah, please stop.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Because you ever notice, too, whenever you talk to it, it really just like tells you what it thinks you want to hear. Yeah, but it also hallucinates.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Like it like it literally does things that you're just like, what are you talking about? Right. And like you listen, humanity is we're a species that needs social interaction. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Wired for connection.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

We're wired. You talking to a computer is not going to help you grow and connect with other individuals.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

It's still talking, which we're saying with the talk therapy only gets you so far. So if you're talking to a robot or a human, it's still not EMDR.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Right. Your loneliness is not gonna get cured by talking to a computer. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I sorry I went off track, but some people probably do feel um at least that like if they are really lonely, even talking to a robot, I'm sure, will give them a false sense of it.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, but the problem but the problem is, and the question that they should ask themselves is and take a step back, why am I afraid to reach out and to talk to someone about it? Right. Why am I afraid that I can't I need to talk to someone in like another human being instead and not and into a computer? Like why am I what why am I like this? Why am I like this? Right. And that's where the real work goes, right? Because trying to understand what's impeding you from doing that, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

At some point the nervous system learned that people aren't safe.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Right. I don't want to be judged.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Right. Sometimes with neurodivergence, right? Like there is a different level of brain chemistry at at play. So there isn't that that sense of um needing that much connection with another person, or they might seem more disconnected, but really it's they just are not demonstrating it in the way that a neurotypical person might.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

And then there's that mismatch.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

I totally agree on that. I think it's just, you know, again, I think everybody needs therapy in some way or another in their life.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

And I think everybody needs a calm, regulated person in their life. Regulated enough.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Regulated enough.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah. Because I was not regulated this morning with my kids. No, that's why you had you. Yeah. But it's that's why you had me in a car. A hundred percent. Yeah. But it's the after the rupture and attachment, after the dysregulation, it's the repair, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah. And it it is, right? You just have to and that's what I think EMGR gives you, right? The this Yeah. The place after each session that you do it. You have time to figure out, regulate, and then come back and notice what other things triggered you, and then you can go back and like figure why that happened.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

A lot of reflection.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

A lot of reflection. You're like a raw nerve. I'm not gonna lie. Like I always say, raw nerve.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Right after every session until ultimately everything's processed and then cleared, and then you can go forward.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

You bring up an important point too, because I think that that's not something that's talked about enough of what it was like for you when you were in the middle of processing. How was life for you? Well, you said raw nerve.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Raw nerve for me. I felt like I was hungover. Um, no joke. I really thought I was like, I had, you know, I had a I was on a bender or something. Um because it was really uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable. Right. Um everything, I was super sensitive to everything. Because I was still processing, my brain was processing it.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, because there is that level of um sympathetic activation, right? Fight or flight, that we need to process something.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

So yeah, so I think um if everyone knew that was to be expected, yeah, and it would make it a little easier to tolerate.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah, I think you had mentioned to me once when we first started, when I came to see you, and you said, listen, I'm gonna put you like through a meat grinder or like uh and then like a meat. My dad was a butcher, but like throw that out there. Yeah. You think you said you're gonna put it's like I'm putting you through a meat grinder. And then I'm gonna come and then you're gonna come out the other end, and then I'm gonna put you back together again. And I was like, oh, this is really this is really like I I can I can yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I know I always say is like it's gonna be uncomfortable, but you're not gonna go through it alone. No, and it's what the therapist is there for.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah, that yeah, uh to see you on the other end, right? And to be there. And that's why grounding, like all those, like having those techniques for you to be able to be there and like ground yourself while you're not in therapy, having the complex, right, having the ability to put things into a container and sh and and put it to a side until you're able to process it again, right? These are all techniques that you learn.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

And listen, some techniques will work and some techniques work.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

I mean throwing shit at the wall, something'll stick.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah. Breathing for me, I do it with clients. It works for some, it doesn't work for others. Right. It doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I'm more of a visual person. So for me to visualize things and accomplice and like whatever, that works for me.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

You just have to be honest with the therapist, what is working and what is not.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yes. Well said. Honesty of like, yeah, this just isn't clicking for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

No. And and that's why it's important not to go into reprocessing immediately. You need to make sure that the client is ready to do that. And that's why you have to test all these other like these techniques during the week, like between sessions, to be sure that they are able to they're ready enough. Yeah, they're ready enough to go into it and they can regulate themselves.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Well, keep in mind too, let's not forget about the power of co-regulation. Oh, yeah. Because there's gonna be plenty of times when you work with clients when you're doing AMDR that they are going to leave the window of tolerance, so to speak. They might start getting dis more dysregulated than they could tolerate. And that's where it's so important to have a therapist in the room because co-regulation is you can borrow my nervous system. If I'm calm and regulated, we can coherently breathe together. Even just being a calm presence is stabilizing for another person.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Oh, yeah. And I remember you being that for me when I wanted to throw up in a garbage can.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

And be like, right here, I'll I'll hold your hair. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

I was like, you were like, yeah, let me let me hold the can for you.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, because it's it's we can't always stop like the waves from coming, so to speak, but we could stand there with you in them so you're not, you don't drown.

unknown 34:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

And that's what's important. Like it's mirror neurons at the end of the day. It's like you yawn, someone else yawns. The same is if you're calm, you can have the same effect on another person. Same if you're super anxious. Like I know when my kids are like nuts, I'm I check myself and go, what are they picking up on? Because usually mommy's a hot mess if they're if they're really nuts.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, that makes sense. That tracks.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah. Plus, they're just so spirited and they love their uncle Frankie.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah, that's why I'm like in and out.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Like, okay, time to go. So you've been on both sides of the sides of the fence. You've done EMDR.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

You you completed the first weekend of your training. So seeing both of these things kind of at play now, where do you think most therapists and clients get stuck?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Uh phase two. Phase one I think so. Yeah. I think it's phase one, phase two, history taking. Um the the history taking and the um what is that uh resourcing? Resourcing. I think they just get stuck and they can't move past because once they start targeting the memory, yeah, they get stuck there and they can't like it it's like they can't make the move to the four, which is uh reprocessing.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

What makes it hard for them to move towards for like they're they just want to avoid it?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I think it could be the client is not ready, but also maybe the therapist's own system is not ready to go there.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

That's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I think a lot of times therapists, as as therapists, you want to go in and help right away. Like you want to give them like the trait. Let's do this. Let's like, that's not true. Let's like they're doing more CBT or whatever, trying to give them the resources instead of like having them, the client, then do it themselves, and have the brain trusting that the the client already knows and the brain knows how to heal itself, and you trying to do it. Don't get me wrong, after it's all reprocessed and like whatever, you can eventually start talking about other things. Like talk therapy is involved, it's not like it's not like in the beginning and then at the end.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Absolutely talk and involved. Like that's how we know talking about your triggers, where do you get triggered? What are your things?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

But ultimately, that's where a lot of therapists say, I'm EMDR trained, but then they get stuck.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. And then the client their own anxiety comes out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

And I think it's also like the maybe they're they don't feel like they're ready or they don't feel like they're capable of doing what that, but that's what having people like you around for consultations and stuff like that to ask, hey, I have this case, what's going on? How do you think I should proceed?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yeah, you need feedback.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah, and you do, right? And I think it's a super important because you're doing a disservice not only to yourself because you're inhibiting your growth of training as an EMDR therapist, but also you like you're really, really doing a disservice to your client. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

And so they're not dealing with EMDR in general, right? Yeah. I know one thing I see all the time that frustrates me is you know, someone's saying, Oh, I tried EMDR in the past and it didn't work. And then you talk to them more and you're like, that wasn't really EMDR, like uh, and that's the part that's uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And one of the things that really is disturbing that I heard in in training was a lot of people were saying that they were being turned away from EMDR because the EMDR therapist was saying you're not you're not a good fit. And it was very shocking to hear.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Did they say more like why?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

No, it was like a lot of like a lot of them were saying, Yeah, I have a lot of clients that are saying they're they came to tell therapy again because the c the the EMDR therapist said they're not a good fit. And it's it seems like a lot of times, and maybe this is something that you know should be looked into, is if these therapists are really going back if a therapist tells you you are not fit for EMDR, right, then you need to understand why.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

And I think they need to be more specific of what they mean by you're not a fit for EMDR. Do they mean um you're not a fit for phase four? Or is there something biological going on that EMDR can't treat? Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Or maybe there's something going on in the phases that you're not, you need to still stay in phase one, phase two, phase three until you can move on to phase four.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

And like you need to process that, right? Right. And then be you need to be stable enough to do the work, right? But that's fine. Right. But you can't just tell, like, I don't really know that. I feel like there's no hope. Right. And that's the worst thing you can do for someone who is looking for hope.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because it's, you know, we talk about this all the time. Like when I like my pet peeves, so to speak, is when people think that EMDR is just phase four.

unknown 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

So saying someone's not a fit for phase four might be accurate, but you have to be that specific because we don't, as EMDR therapists, we get frustrated when people think that only that is what EMDR is. And maybe the conversation is, oh, you need a little bit more uh resourcing and stabilization first. Right. We need to maybe do like an extended history taking, seeing if there's generational things at play, like maybe there's stuff coming up, like we haven't hit the touchstone, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Um, but give more information instead of just you're not a fit for EMDR. Because then people go, Well, what is what why? Like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I know, like it's like, oh my God, they're getting traumatized again.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Right. And they feel alone. Yeah. And like everything's their problem. Right. Which is why they're in therapy in the first place. Something's wrong with me. Because they didn't get the help they needed. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Something's wrong with me.

unknown 40:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Which is like if if if a specialist is saying there's something wrong with me, then there's something wrong with me.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah. And that's where as therapists we have to really um understand how sacred our position is. Because of that, that we hold a lot of power in in a scary way of God, if you say that to someone, you know, this this can't help you, you have to give more context, not an over-explaining kind of way, but context so that they can understand and then, okay, this isn't the right fit for you. Here's what I think is, and give a competent referral. You can't just send somebody out into the world and be like, nah, I can't help you, you're out.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yeah, I like, and maybe this is something for for you to talk about like and explain. But for me, I think everybody is a fit for EMDR un once they're stabilized and like they have their things.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

For phase four, you mean?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

For phase four, right? I think I think everybody should be able, and don't get me wrong, they could be some sort of other like specialties, and maybe the like you said, I might not be a good fit because I'm not able to treat you for an EMDR because I don't treat that population. Right. I can find you an EMDR specialist that works with that sort of situation.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Right, because there are like nuances to every every population. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Like, you know, I think like first responders or something I'm working with first responders, and there is much more hypervigilance there. And you have to be very careful about how much you approach calm because they're trained, literally trained, to not be calm because that's how they keep themselves and everyone else alive.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

So you have to be very um with pendulation, very slow and easy with how calm enough and using discernment of can we discern when it's safe to be calm?

unknown 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

And trust that our body will kick in when it knows that we don't need calm right now.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Right. Exactly. And I think I don't know, I just feel like it's all about education and everything else. Yeah. And knowledge about everything.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

So tell everyone where they could find you, who you love helping, as you're now a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah, so um you can find me in uh behind uh Dana all the time. Um I'm like her shadow next to you, next to you. Yeah. I'm the one that's always cracking jokes around her. Um makes me laugh and I appreciate it. Pretty much and trying to take her off the ledge. Um, um you know, I'm at peaceful living. Yeah. Um, you know, where Dana is, you can go to the website and find me there. Um I love working with anyone really um that really wants to find healing and power and like just live their best life. Yeah. I think everybody deserves to live their best life and to walk walk this earth healed in some way or another. If they want to. If you want to, right? And that's fine. Um and if you're looking for a therapist who's is gonna sit there, talk to you, and not just be a robot, I'm a good fit. Yeah. Like I Not gonna I'm like I say all the time, I'm not the type of therapist that's just gonna sit there and nod their head and like uh uh I'm gonna joke, I'm gonna cry with you, I'm gonna be every moment we're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

You can hold them accountable too. That's what makes you a great therapist.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah, I'm pretty direct when somebody's like, wait a minute, what you said this, and I uh uh uh I was like, Where where are we on this?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Right, because yesing someone to death is just then fostering codependency and it's not helping them heal.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah, and also my job is to get you out and move on with your life. Right. And if you need me, I'll be in the back. But I really want you out and living your life.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah, and enjoying your life, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Yeah, get the hell out of me.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

But we don't want you to need us forever. No, but we say, like, yeah, we'll get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Sometimes you feel sad. I'm like, don't forget that's not about you, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

And they don't have to protect our feelings, they don't have to stay sick to keep us feeling and definitely, and honestly, I don't want to see you sick.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Like, listen, it's not sick. I think it's more of like healing. Yeah. Like I don't everybody's like, oh go enjoy your life.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Enjoy your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

It's short sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Thank you so much for sharing your experience for from both sides of the fence, like we said. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Um, yeah. I think if you're on the fence, even if it's about EMDR or just therapy on in a sense, and you're looking for something, go look for help. You don't have to suffer. I think it's you know, I think people are out there that are trained that are here to help you. And you don't have to do this alone.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Well said. Well said. Thank you so much for being here. No problem.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Can I take this mic with me? I know, right? I'm really fascinated by it.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

We'll walk around with them in the office. I'll be like, hello. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

You got it.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Thank you everybody for coming to another episode of the Truth About Healing podcast. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone else who you think would benefit. Because as we all remember, we repeat what we don't repair.